redarmylivinghistory

You may have also seen this on tonights TV news:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18356232/

The country is still coming to terms with it's wartime past. A memorial to the dead of the Estonian Waffen SS caused problems last year.

Cheers, Ade.

I think that that is terrible what they are doing, how is that memorial any different from our memorials or memorials in different countries? Millions of russians gave their lives for, what they thought, for a better world. I think that it is disgusting that some of our people in the uk and in other countries underestimate the suffering on the eastern front. we will never forget them!

Well, I suppose we have to be very careful about issues such as this, and take into account 2 factors:
1. Although the war itself was one of liberation, the Estonians feel that what came after (and what that statue can represent) was oppression.
2. It is developing into a racial issue, with ethnic Estonians against ethnic Russians, and this could become the beggining of a wave of anti-Russian sentiments throughout the CIS, or Russian relations could remain as they are. It has developed into a symbol of post-soviet rebellion against Russia. Neither side is likely to back down on this one.

This is a tough one. On the one hand, the USSR did invade Estonia and the other Baltic States in 1940, and so could be seen as oppressors, but at the same time Hitler's racial plan rated Balts in general as equivalent to Poles (slightly above cattle) and I don't think that service in the Waffen-SS would have saved you had Hitler defearted the Soviet Union and had a free hand.
The choice seems to be between rule by an opressive hostile foreign power and the same with added random death. Not much of a choice, but still a choice.
So leave the memorial alone, Estonians. Whoever those Red soldiers died for, they also died for you.

I disagree Rob, I think they were genuinely rated below cattle. There was a place for cattle in Hitlers plans for the East, but the total eradication of the Polish people was planned to be completed during the 1970s. I imagine a similar timetable was planned for the Balts as well. Strangely enough, there was one reeasonably enlightened Nazi (is that an oxymoron?) in this area who persistently frustrated the rest of the organisations attempts to ethnically cleans his region; he acted in quite a cleaver manner, argueing for the need fro technical specialists, and educated people, many of which were jewish. I cant remember who he was- I must look it up when I get back from work.

Out of interest on all things currently Russian, if you've got Sky TV try Russia Today, Putin's mouthpiece (or so it seems). The whole Estonian memorial issue was given a lot of coverage that just didn't get reported in our media.

The Russians are taken it very badly, particularly ordinary Russians. It's a complex issue & Russia Today's coverage has exposed the issue of who writes history.

On Comrade Coffins point about the 'enlightened by Nazi standards' general who ran part of Poland; it was a documentary. The Nazi part of Poland was divided into 2 sectors, roughly northern & southern. The northern sector was run by an hard-liner, the southern by a more let us say 'pragmatic' man. That's as much as I remember; anyway mate you didn't imagine it.

Shirt Order

I agree that the Soviet Union deservedly got a bad name for its invasion of the Baltic States in 1940 and the subsequent Stalinist oppression (and I speak wearing my Blue Furashka!). However, nasty as it was, the Stalinist oppression was nothing compared to what came after the Nazis moved in - and I mean Nazis, not Germans. Sadly, local fasch sprang out of the woodwork. Lithuanian and Estonian SS/polizei could be worse than the Germans! Have a look at the book, 'No Time to Mourn' by Leo Kahn.

Many people in the Baltic States were glad to see the back of the Nazis - those that were still ungassed, unclubbed or not shot to death. Sadly, the price was Soviet occupation.

So..although the Memorial has come to be a symbol of oppression after 1945, it is one commemorating sacrifices made 60 years ago to rid Europe of a truly Evil Empire. And it was 60 years ago....so hopefully it will shortly become truly history as the WWII genertaion finally pass on, all can calm down a bit and take a more balanced view. For myself, as I always tell people when at the NKVD stall, I am not in the business of apologising for Stalin but am in 2nd Guards to commemorate the sacrifice of the people of the Soviet Unionnin a truly worthy cause. WWII memorials of the RKKA will hopefully be seen mostly in this way.

Comrade Coffin wrote:I disagree Rob, I think they were genuinely rated below cattle. There was a place for cattle in Hitlers plans for the East, but the total eradication of the Polish people was planned to be completed during the 1970s. I imagine a similar timetable was planned for the Balts as well. Strangely enough, there was one reeasonably enlightened Nazi (is that an oxymoron?) in this area who persistently frustrated the rest of the organisations attempts to ethnically cleans his region; he acted in quite a cleaver manner, argueing for the need fro technical specialists, and educated people, many of which were jewish. I cant remember who he was- I must look it up when I get back from work.

You must be thinking of Albert Forster, Gauleiter of Danzig-West Prussia who unlike his rival Arthur Greiser, Gauleiter of the Warthegau did not interpret the Germanization directives as meaning the ethnic cleansing of all Poles from his area into the General Government. He reclassified all Poles in his area as Germans and declared the Germanisation process as complete.
He was hung at the end of the war for War Crimes.
On the question of the Russian War Memorials in Estonia, they should be left as a mark of respect, I say this despite the fact that the Russians obliterated the War Cemeteries left behind by the Wehrmacht after the war.

TBH I try not to get involved in grey areas but I think removing any sort of war memorial is a terrible idea due to the fact that the estonions fought and died and we should remember them whaterver side they fought on.