Hi, Folks,

Although the article below doesn't directly relate to the Great Patriotic War, nevertheless, I've come to a decision to draw your attention to it because Giles Smith's notes represent a rare positive comment about Russia in the Western media.
When I had read it through up to the words “fans’ gulags” I couldn't help rolling out of my chair onto the floor with laughter!

Enjoy, Comrades!

MY ONE-PARTY STATE IN MOSCOW

From THE TIMES, May 23, 2008

by Giles Smith

Dread rumours had surrounded the final, ghastly forewarnings for the travelling supporter. Win or lose, despair and bitter regret, coupled with the likelihood of bankruptcy, were, apparently, the only plausible eventualities for those obsessed or downright naive enough to attempt the journey east. So what happened? How come the all-English Champions League face-off in Russia turned out, for such a large majority, to be a smoothly organised, crisply administered adventure lacking the dimension of imprisonment and even became, for some, a party?

Several hours into my Moscow “consumer experience”, strolling idly past the Kremlin in the direction of lunch, I realised that not one of the following hotly advertised outcomes had befallen me. I had not been detained at immigration for the best part of a day by still fundamentally Communist paperwork protocols. I had not been bullied into a “rat-infested prison”, as promised by the Daily Mail. And nor had I been charged in excess of 1,000 roubles (about £21) for a fizzy drink or been driven three times round the ring road before having my luggage emptied by an unscrupulous and unlicensed taxi driver.

As for the “fans’ gulags” — well, there were none. True, later in the day I would be pointed in the direction of a vaguely segregated “fan zone” — one of a pair of areas near the stadium where supporters could hang around and wait for the kick-off. But let’s note, for future reference, that a “zone” is very different from a “gulag”. At any rate, I’m not sure that programmes, novelty fur-style hats and Coca-Cola were on sale in the gulags.

Fans seem to have been cheerfully released on to the streets and left alone to do the sights, many of which had been generously buffed up in anticipation — in particular Red Square, which was given over to a football-themed “Champions Festival”. I suspect that to get the full, majestic sweep of the square, you need to see it when it doesn’t have so many bouncy castles and branded tents.

Still, here was a rare opportunity to see where Stalin’s remains lie and have yourself photographed with the European Cup immediately afterwards. And surely you would be a fool to turn your nose up at a one-stop chance to see Lenin’s embalmed body and Sir Bobby Charlton. (I missed him, but people were excitedly talking about having seen him wandering around near the five-a-side pitch. This is Sir Bobby I’m talking about, obviously, not Lenin.)

Pre-match gloom had spread even as far as the state of the pitch. We were led to expect an unprecedented horticultural disaster featuring unfitted rolls of underlay, freshly imported from the frozen wastes of the north and still thawing, and ugly bare patches, like someone’s lawn after a paddling pool comes off it. Word had it that Russian groundsmen had been jumping up and down on the pitch all afternoon in an unsuccessful attempt to get it to lie flat.

But no. It looked green — bright green. And none of it seemed to be sticking up in the air, not even in the corners. Heck, it looked almost like the kind of pitch you see in England.

As for the Luzhniki Stadium, it was pleasingly reminiscent of the old Wembley — or of how the old Wembley might have been had it only afforded the luxury of an unobstructed view and a seat you could comfortably sit in. Not that we did, in fact. At the Chelsea end, day-trippers from Gatwick, 17 hours into a 24-hour period, or more, of wakefulness, remained standing for the entire 120 minutes plus pens.

“Bring it back,” people had said when two English teams qualified for this final. “Stage it at Wembley. Make it easier for the fans.” Really? And maybe we should start up the Home Internationals again, while we’re about the business of wilfully lowering the horizon. The Champions League is meant to be a European competition, after all, and no matter that English clubs may come to dominate it, the moment that it exists to meet the convenience of a few thousand people from Manchester and London, it’s over. It’s bigger than that and, being bigger, involves travel.

True, from the point of a view of a Chelsea supporter, when John Terry missed that one kick for glory — one simple, 12-yard side-foot with several million pounds, a European title and a place in history hanging off it — London did seem quite a long way away and home somewhere one badly needed to be. But if you feel like burying yourself . . . well, Moscow isn’t such a bad place for that, too. Ask Lenin.

The source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 987716.ece

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

Good article. Trudie & I went to Moscow for 7 nights a couple of years back. Managed to wander round unmolested by anyone including the authorities, russian mafia and neo-nazi thugs (as the UK media would have it). Despite knowing very little Russian, loved the place, mind you the foods crap & the locals didn't seem to have much time for non-Russian speaking 'Angleski'. Noticed the police wandered around in gangs & met in the parks for a quick fag. Moscow, loved it.

Shirt Order.

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If I was rich I'd buy a T-34 & a small deserted
village.

Is neo nazism a growing problem in Russia?

If you, Sam, would provide me with a certain definition what you call 'neo nazism' -- I would gladly answer your question.
I am afraid that by the present time such words as 'nazism', 'fascism', 'chauvinism', and many others of the kind, have lost their initial sense, and have been used simply as negative labels.
Nowadays any person, whose behaviour you do not approve, may be called 'fascist'.
I do not think this is a correct practice to use the political terms as mere curses.
So, I am ready to respond to you in full detail if you would explain to me what exactly you mean under 'neo nazism'.

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

I remember watching the match and the whole pub roaring with laughter watching some united fans passing their shirts to some of the russian police who put them on over their jackets.

Definetly an image to remember i think

_________________
http://2ndguards.com/index.html

"Do what you do best Andrei......stay by my side .....and make your Maxim sing!" BobHR

Andrei Valtarovich Prusins
Guards yehfreytor
Kitchen Bitch
PTRD gunner

Rather than rejecting the term "neo nazi" Michael, why not describe what you consider "neo nazi" to mean?

It has a particular meaning for us in the UK and although maybe you see it as a worthless label, to us it does mean something.

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

Hi, Andy,

I do not reject the term 'neo nazi' simply because I have got rather a vague idea about it.

What I want is just to learn its 'particular meaning" as you say.
Of course, we have been heard this term from time to time, but I fail to comprehend it completely.

If you cannot give me a clear definition, then, perhaps, you would give me some instances to visualize the problem.
For example: that guy does exactly that and that, and therefore we call him 'neo nazi'.
Then I would be able to answer if there are many such bad guys in Russia, or not.

If this is connected to an old American tradition of lynching negros, then I can say that we have neither negros, nor such tradition in Russia. Many modern western-style 'racial' problems we cannot appreciate in full measure because we lack (thank God!) some certain historical experience.

Frequently, one and the same term can be understood absolutely differently by different people.
For example: Nationalism.
You remember our discussing it on another thread.
I am convinced -- or rather I hope very much -- that you and I may share the similar lofty and noble ideas. But, obviously, we, you and I use the term Nationalism in strikingly different ways.

I have just updated the page http://www.russian-victories.ru/index.htm
You will see there (at the bottom) an illustrated explanation of what WE understand under the term 'Russian nationalism'.
Take special notice of the photo featuring a little boy meeting his father-soldier who came back home from the war.
When I look at the photo I cannot help being on the verge of tears . . .
Regards

Michael

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

Sorry, I've made a little mistake -- we were discussing not Nationalism but Russian Patriotism.
You see that the both terms are almost one and the same for us.

Indiscriminately, either Russian Nationalism or Russian Patriotism imply the following idea:
"I love my family and I love my Great Family -- the Russian people, disregarding the current political system (which is a mere wrapper of the Russian core), and I stand ready at any moment to make mincemeat of any aggressor"
What do you think, Andy?

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

I think a Neo-Nazi, for us, has a few points in common:
-A young, disenfranchised man, usually without any prospects in life
-A hatred of outsiders, recent immigrants being the usual focus but inevitably falling back on Jews
-An intense ignorance, indeed a pride in acknowledging only one point of view
-Certain 'tribal marks' (very short hair, pilot jackets, 'DM' boots)
-A happiness with using physical violence to get his point across.
This is probably the sort of person that Sam had in mind. They are a source of shame and embarrasment in the UK.
Patriotism is generally seen over here as a good thing. It centres a person, gives him a common history and a shared set of values that increases his sense of identity.
Nationalism a a word carries the weight of the evil that Hitler's nationalists did. It decays into intolerance and bigotry, and isolates certain classes of people from full participation in the society they live in. The word itself obviously carries different shades of meaning in our respective countries, but it is why British people are wary of 'Nationalism',

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Radu Raduvich Himea
Yefreytor
Captain's Orderly

http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html


DEATHSPOON

Actually Michael, my impression is that modern day Russia does have a racist problem that maybe linked to the blurred lines of "nationalism" muh in the same way as Rob accurately describes our "neo-nazi" idea from the UK.

There were several high profile (in Russia) cases of racist murders in Moscow recently and I know the authorities have launched a big campaign to try and make this sort of behaviour unacceptable (the racist part obviously, not the murder which is clearly already illegal!) and also to try and make racist thoughts also unacceptable.

I'm not sure where in Russia you are, but you too must be aware of how anyone with even a hint of a sun tan is treated...

I've seen it myself in London too, when many of your fellow Russians were at a Russian cultural festival I attended - the torrent of racist abuse the (black) staff received from them was just incredible. I was truly sickened by this I have to say and it almost completely switched off my interest in your nation!!!

We have a long history here of different people living among us - most "British" are descendents of centuries of immigrants anyway. Yes, you still get as Rob says "distrust of the most recent arrivals" but by and large we are very tolerant.

Your nation for almost a century had no such ebb and flow of people (by and large) but under Communism I know even Soviet ethnic minorities had a hard time in certain quarters - despite the Party thoroughly attempting to stamp it out (not very Marxist racism...)

But its not a Russian problem, the same is true in most of Europe to some degree but its never been anything but totally unacceptable in the eyes of the law and the police.

Its a new century for Russia though and I think its unreasonable to expect things to change over night or even in ten years or even 20. It will come, it will sort itself out but I think anyone would be foolish to expect it to end up like the UK or USA because it never will be that because it is Russia and will remain always "Russian"

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

The way that I have come to see it and would describe it is that
Patriotism is pride and "love" for your own country, people and culture
nationalism is taking this one step further and believing that your own country and culture is superior to all others.

I dont know if this is true, and its definetly not the dictionary definition but I would like to hear how others explain the difference.

Cheers Andy

_________________
http://2ndguards.com/index.html

"Do what you do best Andrei......stay by my side .....and make your Maxim sing!" BobHR

Andrei Valtarovich Prusins
Guards yehfreytor
Kitchen Bitch
PTRD gunner

Hi, Andy,

I see we have unexpectedly broached a huge off-topic, which is interesting per se, of course, but I am afraid it may diverge us too far astray, and may even lead us into an undesirable quarrel
While I do cherish very much my being accepted by all of you so kindly here on this Forum.

You say, Andy:

Well, I am sad to learn that that case switched off your interest in our nation.
I don't know what exactly 'the torrent of racist abuse' it was.
Was it something serious? Did they insult the black staff in face?
Or, maybe, those guys simple-heartedly would say each other in astonishment something like: "Oh, how many Negroes there are here in London"?
If so, then it was simply a kind of 'cultural shock' and no special racism.
The matter is that most of the Russians still continue to consider erroneously London to be inhabited by white people.
I'd think the best way to reprove them would be saying: "If you don't like blacks, guys, you should better stay home in Moscow!"

By the way, the word 'Negro' has NO insulting connotation in Russian language, while the word 'Black' has.
Which is why the Russians would prefer to use the word Negro, instead of Black -- in order just NOT to insult the people of African descent, you see
We used to use this word during centuries before the discovery of America, and will continue its using disregarding of all the notorious PC.

You may be surprised, Andy, but I myself was not aware of the current racial circumstances in London until December 2004.
Imagine!
I thought London to be inhabited by white people, too, until I read this article, quoted below, relating to the times of the so-called Orange Revolution in the Ukraine, in December 2004.




Even to the present day I am not sure how to regard that message (quoted above) -- either as a piece of bitter irony, or as a sincere good-wishing to import in Kiev a few millions of Zimbabweans to resolve all the Ukrainian problems.
I feel puzzled, indeed.

Regards,
Michael

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

Hi, Radu,

You describe the Neo Nazi in the following way:


I find your explanation very clear and helpful. Thank you.
Yes, I have watched such guys five or six times on the TV, during the last fifteen years, or so.
Not very frequently, eh?

Since 1991 till 2001 I had lived in a small town, some 20 miles from Moscow, and I used to commute to the capital almost every day on business. Each time, usually, I used to spend several hours walking along different Moscow streets and travelling by the Metro (the Subway) from one end of the huge city to the other. Unfortunately, or rather fortunately I have never encountered such blokes as you described.
Never, believe me.
Please note that I do not deny their existence.
I do simply say: I have never met in person any young man similar to the above described Neo Nazi.

As to the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism -- I do fully agree with you and Andrei, and accept your definition.
I would only add that the Russian Patriotism is to be sooner identified with the sense of DEFENSE, rather than PRIDE.
Oh, yes, PRIDE is present, too, but much more DEFENSE.
Those who can read Russian media (in Russian) know that there is hardly ever any other nation in the world more self-critical than we Russians.
My website is a rare exception
A deliberate exception, I'd say.

Regards,
Michael

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

No Michael, sadly your fellow countrymen were very outwardly racist towards the hard working staff of that facility. I won't repeat what they said and what actions of mockery they displayed, but it was bad, very bad and it left me feeling very sad

As for what you thought London was like, well, maybe I am not surprised - much like I don't expect many in our country to have much detailed knowledge of Russia (as I said in another post on here today), it would be unreasonable to assume the reverse

But there was some irony in that Russian, Slavic people, would in London find a chance to be xenophobic about what probably were British Citizens.

Don't worry, its just another thing I found out on my continuing voyage of discovery about Russia and the (former) Soviet Union. My quest continues

That article you quoted there is very strange, but we have some people with some very strange "positive discrimation" (if you know what I mean) types in our land...

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

If such is the case, Andy, I am very very sorry.
I wish I could do anything to restore Russian reputation.
Please accept my apologies on behalf of that bunch of drunken idiots.
Cheers,
Michael

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE

Michael

I'm sure nobody is expecting you to apologise for the actions of your country men like im sure you wouldn't expect anybody else to.

but the fact that you do to me shows how much you see your country as a family

_________________
http://2ndguards.com/index.html

"Do what you do best Andrei......stay by my side .....and make your Maxim sing!" BobHR

Andrei Valtarovich Prusins
Guards yehfreytor
Kitchen Bitch
PTRD gunner

I don't think you need to apologise either.
Most of us are not naive enough to think there is any country on earth (including Russia and UK) where there are no rascist people.
When discussing countries and cultures there is always the danger of generalisation. There are good and bad aspects of all societies and cultures, there is ignorance and enlightenment. I think it would be odd if this was not the case.

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Semyon Yakovlevich Sorókin
Guardsman
2nd Guards Rifle Division

"The guts of the German army have been largely torn out by Russian valour and generalship." - Winston Churchill, speech to Parliament 1944

It seems I started a right little thing with my use of 'Neo Nazis'; just shows
how much we all have to learn. My original use of the offending term, was followed by some words in brackets. Seems to have been missed. The term 'Neo Nazi' was merely a bit of english 'shorthand', obvously misinterpreted by Micheal. My apologies if offence was taken by anyone, particularly Michael.

Shirt Order

_________________
If I was rich I'd buy a T-34 & a small deserted
village.

Thank you Andrei, Semyon, and Shirt Order,
I am touched with your support.

Yours is a shrewd observation, Andrei, although I did not think about the family at that moment.
It was a natural impulse of the soul.

No offence intended and none taken, Shirt Order.
Although, I would prefer to call you by name, if possible, but I don't know...

Cheers,
Michael

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SI VIS VIVERE - NOLI RUSSIAM TANGERE