I found this article interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -pact.html

Cheers, Ade.

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http://www.2ndguards.com/index.html

Adrian Borisovitch Stepanov
Guards Starshina
Unit 2 I/C 2nd Guards Rifle Div.

Good article that. Pre-war 'what ifs' and political manouverings are a very interesting subject.
Poland is supposed to have suggested a joint Polish-French attack on Germany after after Hitler took over in 1933.

Cheers,
Simon

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Semyon Yakovlevich Sorókin
Guardsman
2nd Guards Rifle Division

"The guts of the German army have been largely torn out by Russian valour and generalship." - Winston Churchill, speech to Parliament 1944

Well, that's an interesting piece of history! More 'why and what if's'. Perhaps a lengthy conflict could have been averted, but then we have to look at all the other aspects and the mindset of the people and polititians of the time that inevitably led us all into another war. We didn't want another conflict, neither did the German people so soon after WW1.

I disagree, one of the root causes of the second world war was the resentment many sectors of the german people felt over the outcome of the first and the social and economic chaos which resulted.
There is no reason to think that the West would not have found themselves at war with Stalins Russia given his ruthlessly opportunistic attitude to foreign policy and the Wests profound mistrust of the Soviets intentions.


A monument was erected in the mid thirties on the Belgian border, it read; 'Never German forget what blind hate has robbed from thee. Await the hour that avenges these bleeding frontier crimes.'


War was inevitable.

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Saninstruktor Iosef Trofimovich Grushenko
or
Voennii Vrach Ibrahim Ibrahimovich Shapiro

Either's good.

Stalin was suspicious that the UK and France where prepared to give Hitler a free hand in the East against Soviet Russia.
There certainly were elements in the West who saw Hitler as a bulwark against Bolshevism and were not averse to him striking Eastwards.
Stalin discounted warnings from the British on Hitler's intentions as provocations.
The offer of a treaty has to be seen in the context of the times.

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8./Kompanie Infanterie-Regiment Gro�deutschland (mot)
" Regimenter sterben zehnmahl, aber es bleibt....das Regiment."

Given how Britain since 1917 was very much anti-communist and pretty much pro-fascist right up to (and for some in power, beyond) September 1939 just about anything could have happened to be honest.

More than anything else, I'd say the eventual alliance with the Soviets was about as unlikely as pretty much anything else.

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

Well Shabby, I agree with your statement. But if you had spoken to some of the German people 30 odd years ago as I had, dispite the the depression and grieviences, those who saw through the 1st conflict with the grief of lost husbands, sons and other kin, just did not want to go through all that a second time round. In the end it seems to boil down to power, money or lack of it; the route of all evil?

I've met a large number of German veterans of the conflict and one or two in particular that I won't name here were completely unrepentant about their support, even enthusiasm, for the war and Hitler's territorial aims which they identify with as national aims.

The second world war has to be seen in context of the series of European wars of which it was the culmination. There was widespread support in Germany for the Franco Prussian war which restored to them territory lost to France, humiliated a traditional foe and inflated national pride in the nascent German empire. In 1918 the revenge France exacted at the price of so much blood was the complete humiliation of the German people and also it's economic and social ruin: fascism, socialism, chaos, murder, starvation . All served to build the myth for the of betrayal at home and collusion abroad.

Hitler had only to fan the embers of this smoldering resentment to find willing accomplices in every strata of Germanys society: The general staff, the young men untried, idle, militant, the industrialist hungry for business and the hundreds of thousands of ordinary, decent folk who had lost homes or savings or sons at the hands of perfidious Albion and their hated Gallic allies.


The march to destruction was inexorable. With or without Hitler or Stalin bloodshed was inevitable.

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Saninstruktor Iosef Trofimovich Grushenko
or
Voennii Vrach Ibrahim Ibrahimovich Shapiro

Either's good.

I'd agree with Shabby there, it definitely seems as though the war weariness that Sasha speaks of was not a popular feeling in Germany (unlike in Britain or France). I'm sure it existed, but not the prevalent feeling.

Versailles was a big mistake and you'll notice how since then everybody tries to avoid that sort of resolution to a conflict...

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

The Versailles Treaty was certainly seen by the German population as a national humiliation and there certainly was resentment against the Allies.
(The economic blockade of Germany was continued for a year after the Armistice causing thousands of deaths through malnutrition and lack of medical supplies, a historical event ignored in most
popular histories in Europe.)
Hitler used these resentments and the fear of Bolshevism to gather votes for the NSDAP. The various strands of the political elites in Germany all favoured elements of his program. The military wanted rearmament and the restoration of their prestige it would bring, the industrialists wanted the trades unions tamed and tariff barriers against foreign competition, the right wanted the abrogation of the Versailles Treaty and the return of the lost territories. None of the elites supported the Weimar Republic seeing it as an imposition by the Allies.The left was fragmented and like the right intrigued against the Wiemar Republic.
Hitler gained a number of political successes which strengthened his position and popularity precisely because he achieved these successes without resort to war.
When war came(too early as far as the military was concerned) a series of quick, cheap(in fatalities) victories intoxicated the German public, undermined the authority of the military leadership and Hitler convinced of his genius stuck East and led Germany to its ruin.
Personally I think that without Hitler there would have been no WWII. Certainly there would have been no attack on Russia.

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8./Kompanie Infanterie-Regiment Gro�deutschland (mot)
" Regimenter sterben zehnmahl, aber es bleibt....das Regiment."

I don't know about "no WW2 without Hitler", I suspect something along those lines might well have still happened because if it hadn't have been the far right control of Germany (and the subsequent conflict), it would have been the far left (in cahoots with Stalin) and the nature of "WW2" would have been more a struggle for world revolution. But the none the less, the catalyst would have been the mess created by the end of WW1 and Versailles....

Just maybe the outcome might have been somewhat different....

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"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

Lenin said 'there will never be a revolution in Germany, the police would forbid it'.

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8./Kompanie Infanterie-Regiment Gro�deutschland (mot)
" Regimenter sterben zehnmahl, aber es bleibt....das Regiment."

If Kerensky had had the backbone to have the Russian army or police put Lenin against a wall in 1917 they may well have had a true social democracy in Russia 73 years early.

_________________
Saninstruktor Iosef Trofimovich Grushenko
or
Voennii Vrach Ibrahim Ibrahimovich Shapiro

Either's good.