I couldn't agree more, Comrade Bobhr. Even as a lowly Int. Corporal in a TA battalion ( I was a full time civilian Soviet Army specialist), I remember a lot of heads being buried in the sand! On one memorable training exercise at Catterick using the Battlegroup Trainer, our battalion CO was briefed by us. There was a notional Soviet position (forward edge of a 'resting' Motor Rifle Regiment) about 5km away. He asked how much advance warning he'd get before a Soviet advance Guard could hit him and was told ' no more than 15 minutes' He seemed amused and completely disregarded us, thinking he'd have a few hours (!). We got overrun; I doubt the Soviet regiment took more than a very few losses, if any. Sigh. People believe what they want to believe if they're not very careful. We did so in May 1940 and the Nazis stuffed us. Stalin did so in June 1941 and the Nazis stuffed him too.


I recommend a book 'On the Psychology of Military Incompetence' by Norman R Dixon. Dated but still worth a read.

Hi , I know what you mean ; I used to teach NBC and went to a seminar in Norway whilst on deployment with AMF(L).

It was the only time NBC was truly realistic because they showed us a plot of the soviet forces moving down from the top of the North Cape (there was only one major route through the fjords and valleys.).

There were BM21 "Katyushas" the ones (as you know) that would put down "Blood Agent" (hydrogen cyanide) prior to a ground attack.

They asked us "would you get your men to "suit and mask up"?
So we thought about it. The fence-sitters said "yes" while those of us that thought it through said "not yet" because the BM 21 would not be within range for another 24hrs.
There was no need to get people hot,sweaty and fatigued until just before that time !

The obverse was when we went to "Porton Battle Run"... I was in the CP tent and the phone went with a warning that there had been a Blood Agent attack ; they told me it would be clear in half an hour.
But Blood Agent dissappears of its own accord (ie regardless of weather ) in five minutes...hence the reason why it is a precursor to a ground attack by troops ! There is no hazard for them and the opposition have been weakened.

I was really impressed by HQs thorough understanding of chemical agents !

In training if you suggested a nuclear phase then it was frowned upon and I spent a lot of my teaching effort (nuclear phase) trying to get the lads and the hiarachy to appreciate the difference between a tactical or theatre nuc and the nasty thermonuclear megaton bastards!

I did plotting and predicting as a second skill so that I could run or be part of a cell if need be; and there were "cas and dam" tables which showed the damage caused by different yield of weapon at different ranges (all airburst.

It was fascinating to show them on the map that if a 20Kt nuc were detonated about 2km from them; provided they had their NBC trench with what was effectively a plasch with 18" of earth piled on it, and they stayed down and didn`t look out , then they would survive.

My biggest concern was being hit by a vehicle mechanics` toolkit during the "drag back"!!

I did at one time try to transfer from REME to the Int Corps but they had no vacancies for Combat Int and I would have had to go LingSy , but I failed the ALAT test ! Strange cos I love languages ! I would have liked listening in to the radio traffic, stuck in a bunker near the border !!
Only coming up at night and all pale skinned !

I enjoyed teaching recognition and NBC and probably derived more satisfaction and achieved more in it that at my trade.

I had been preaching awareness of SCUDS to the lads for years and when the Gulf situation arose it proved accurate but luckily they didn`t have chemicals pumping out of them as they went overhead!

I would love to liestn to your memories when you have time ,near the camp fire over a beer?

_________________
Name: Robert Fillipovich Soodyarov
Rank: Yefreytor
Очын приатна - Эа вас !!
Drink Tea, Be Mellow !

Hello Comrade Bobhr


Well, as you know, NBC and Int Cells often were combined at battalion level. Ours was. I ran the NBC warning and reporting bit. Its true what you say about the ignorance and downright confusion there was (is??) amongst those supposedly trained for the task. Try explaining to people that, just cos' its a nuke, it don't mean the world will end. Stay in a trench, or even (I know this is derided but it do work) under a bloody table in a building. As long as the thing doesn't land on your head, you get a lot of protection from the main danger - flying debris, blast, falling rubble. Fallout can be bad but its really only the huge megatonners ground-burst that pose really serious dangers over a big area; and, most troops would take a week or two to die or be seriously incapacitated by fall out from a 'small' nuke. It'd probably be irrelevant operationally by then. Sad fact. Main danger is the heat, blast, fragments and ground shock - like in a 'conventional' weapon. Some of the Soviet Thermobaric weapons were the equivalent of small nukes (i.e sub kiloton).

I remember watching a BBC programme about the Camberley Higher Officer course where, at a table top game, the OpFor rep. announced a tactical nuclear strike on the Brits holding a bridge. Logicla. Its what I'd jave done. A coule of KT to clear the way. Pathetically, the Brit officers under training complained about the 'distasteful' nature of the game and that the DS were treating a horrendous topic facetiously. !! God help us. Did they think these things wouldn't be used because it'd be in bad taste??!! Re-enactors and school wargamers often seem to have a better grasp of the realities of war than our professionals. And Americans always seem outraged when someone shoots back.

At the other end, getting people to take chemicals seriously was difficult - probably because wearing the kit is uncomfortable and taking unit proper precautions is inconvenient for planning staff. Slows down things and isn't glamorous. I remember once on Lionheart giving a 'gas, gas, gas' warning in the Battalion HQ area at about 2am (we'd just tracked a flight of Mig 23s in a classic 'spray' mission upwind of us). Instead of everyone masking up, I got a reprimand from the Adjutant (a regular!) for waking everyone up and spoiling their rest. My colour sergeant told him he was vomiting and shitting himself to death and asked how much that would spoil his sleep .

I must agree on the quality of the people: I went to Verden (I think it was,aAn " HQ n Sigs" place and I forget the divison,4 I think) !
The plotitng an predicting course had a real mis of experienced trainers and some lads from the RAOC or similar who had just been dicked to do it !
I always thought of and tried to explain the airburt nuc in the context that the enhanced blast did the same job as tonnes of HE. So one well placed nuc would save barrage after barrage of conventional artillery.
Like you mentioned earlier I am familiar with the concept of canalising the enemy and killing zones and the idea of defence in depth and so on.

Having now seen the disaster that was Chernobyl and the resultant downwind plot and actual hazard from that its easy to see that a dsurface burst would have been a bad idea.

I cannot say off the top of my head what they equated Chenobyl to in terms of yield, but we know that the results went all the way to Scandinavia and I think Scotland.

The soviets would have wanted to occupy and exploit the land "liberated" so I expect they wopuld have avoided ground bursts because as we know it takes hundreds of years for the radiation to die away.

Of course we have not even touched on the "neutron bomb" which the soviets would have had a real problem with had they attacked. It would have killed living things (ie their troops and AFV crews) due to the "enhanced radiation" of neutrons that would have punched through most things and not left fallout ;thus badly effecting their mass attacks.
But skillfully they used public opinion to have it banned !

I never taught that weapon though and it came and went quietly!

It is interesting to hear you recall the reactions of the hiarachy in the event of your calling gas gas gas.

Did you ever come across "Quick Train" or before that "Active Edge "?
Units received it by phone , authenticated it then crashed everyone out.
I was on guard at my first unit when it came in and I legged it to the block to tell every one.
The first room I opend (at about 2330) and called "Active Edge was called at 2315" and all I got was "fuuuuuuuk oooooof " !!

_________________
Name: Robert Fillipovich Soodyarov
Rank: Yefreytor
Очын приатна - Эа вас !!
Drink Tea, Be Mellow !

The neutron bomb eh... the ultimate Capitalist weapon - only kills workers and peasants, leaves the capitalist property standing.

That is how the Soviets killed that one off :d

_________________
"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941

The neutron bomb eh... the ultimate Capitalist weapon - only kills workers and peasants, leaves the capitalist property standing.

That is how the Soviets killed that one off :d

_________________
"Lenin left us a great legacy, and we have f*cked it up." I.V. Stalin, June 29, 1941